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Interview with Baba
(Part One)
by R.K. Karanjia
Previous Chief Editor, Blitz Magazine
India
September 1976
Puttaparthi, India
Published: BLITZ, 1974
Web Posted: July 28, 1999
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Mr. R.K. Karanjia, Editor-in-chief for the weekly scandal-tabloid, Blitz magazine, was a very
persistent critic of Sathya Sai Bhagavan. Blitz magazine had published several ‘not-so-nice’
articles about Baba in the past, questioning His genuineness. Baba’s staff would become annoyed at
these articles and would request Bhagavan’s permission to respond to them.
Bhagavan—good-natured and kind—the very embodiment of tranquility and patience was unaffected by
these narrow human failings, and simply responded, "Why should we bother? Be patient: he too will
come to me one day."
In 1976, Karanjia did indeed come to Puttaparthi, and was granted a very rare privilege to have
all his doubts removed through a rare, interesting and historic interview.
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Karanjia:
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At the outset, Swamiji, we would like to know something about your triple
incarnation—past, present and future—that is, from Shirdi Baba to Sathya Sai Baba and the Prem Sai
Baba to come, according to your prophecy?
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Baba:
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First of all, you must grasp the complete, oneness of the three incarnations of contemporary times
with those of the past like Rama and Krishna. This is a difficult task. When people cannot
understand the present, how can they comprehend the past? Every incarnation is full and complete in
relation to the time, the environment and the task. There is no distinction between the various
appearances of God as Rama, Krishna or Sai.
Rama came to feed the roots of Truth and Righteousness. Krishna followed to foster the plant of
Peace and Love. Now these sacred principles are in danger of wholesale destruction by reason of
human weakness under the onslaught of evil forces. They are overcoming the good, the spiritual and
the divine in man. That is why the present Avatar has come invested with the totality of Cosmic
power to save righteousness from unrighteousness.
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Karanjia:
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By the present Avatar, you mean Sai Baba?
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Baba:
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Yes. I incarnate from age to age, time to time, to save righteousness from unrighteousness.
Whenever strife, discord and disharmony overwhelm the world, God incarnates in human form to show
mankind the way to love, harmony and peace.
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Karanjia:
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That is understandable. But sceptics wonder why God should assume a human
form?
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Baba:
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Because that is the only way to incarnate the God within man. The Avatar takes the human form and
behaves like in a human way so that humanity can feel kinship with divinity. At the same time he
rises to godly heights so that mankind also can aspire to reach God. The realisation of the
indwelling God as the motivator of life is the task for which Avatars come in human form.
Previous Avatars like Rama and Krishna had to destroy a few individuals who could be identified as
enemies of the godly way of life and thus restore the righteous path. Today, however, wickedness
has tainted so many that humanity itself stands under the threat of destruction. Therefore, in my
present Avatar, I have come armed with the fullness of the power of formless God to correct
mankind, raise human consciousness and put people on the right path of Truth, Righteousness, Peace
and Love to Divinity.
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Karanjia:
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Why had this task to be divided into three separate incarnations of the
Shirdi, Sathya and Prem Babas?
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Baba:
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They are not separate. I have already mentioned the complete oneness of the three in the final
objective of the mission. I will give you an example. Take a kilo of gur; the whole of it
tastes sweet. Next break it into small pieces. Each of them is sweet. Finally break it into small
pieces. Each of them is sweet. Finally break them further into small grains. You find the same
sweetness in them. So, the difference is one of quantity and not quality. It is the same with the
Avatars. Their tasks and powers requisite to them differs according to the time, the situation and
the environment, but they belong to and derive from, one and the same Dharma Swaroop, or Divine Body.
Let us take the example of fruit: It begins with the seed, which grows into the tree and from it
comes fruit. Work can be compared to the seed, worship to the tree and wisdom
to the fruit.
The previous Avatar, Shirdi Baba, laid the base for secular integration and gave mankind the
message of duty that is work. The mission of the present Avatar is to make everybody realise that
since the same God or divinity resides in everyone, people should respect, love and help each other
irrespective of caste, color or creed. Thus every work can become an act of worship. Finally, Prema
Sai, the third Avatar, shall promote the evangel that not only does God reside in everybody, but
everyone himself is God. That will be the final wisdom which will enable every man and woman to
rise to be God(ly).
Thus the three Avatars carry the triple message of work, worship and wisdom.
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Karanjia:
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So what are, in sum, the total mission and divine purpose of this triple
incarnation?
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Baba:
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To unite all mankind into one caste or family with the establishment of the divinity—in every man
or woman, which is the basis on which the entire Cosmic design rests. Once this is realised, the
common divine heritage that binds man to man and man to God will become apparent and Love shall
prevail as the guiding light of the universe.
In the first place, man has to develop into mankind in the fullness of its integrated potential. At
present mankind as such is absent in the world. There is no synthesis between thought, word and
deed. Man today thinks one thing, says something different, and acts quite the contrary. So what we
have is the individual man, confused, confounded and bombarded with contradictory thoughts. What we
do not see is mankind in him motivated by good thoughts, good words, and good deeds. We have to
make him realise God within him and develop a synthesis corelating thought, word and deed.
Once this primary lesson is taught in the family, the school, the college, the society, the cities,
the states, the nations of the world, man will become conscious of the fact that all mankind
belongs to one family. As Christ preached, all are one; be alike to everyone. The vital issue is
the oneness: one caste, one class, one creed of humanity; and this can be achieved only by the
surrender of one’s self or ego to pure, selfless, universal love and devotion. Love is the basis,
the common denominator, and devotion the divine spark, the cementing, unifying integrating factor
between man and man, and man and God.
Let me give you an illustration (Baba spreads his handkerchief on the ground between us). Here is a
piece of cloth. As you see, it is all made of threads. Pull out the threads separately and the
cloth becomes weak. Out them together and it is firm and strong. It is the same with mankind. Love
binds it like the million, billion threads in cloth and Devotion reunites it with God. I,
therefore, embody love and use it as my instrument to regenerate man and create the brotherhood of
mankind with the help of the latter’s devotion. I always say: Start the day with love. Fill the
day with love. End the day with love. This is the quickest way, the surest path to God.
Life is love, enjoy it;
Life is a challenge, meet it;
Life is a song, sing it;
Life is a dream, realise it;
Life is a game, play it.
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Karanjia:
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Did Shirdi Baba actually claim that he will be born eight years after his
death in 1918?
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Baba:
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Yes, he did. This has been recorded by Kaka Dikshit as well as a number of other devotees who were
with Shirdi Baba.
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Karanjia:
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What makes you sure that you are Shirdi Baba incarnate?
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Baba:
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The knowledge of my own authentic experience, of course. Since no one who knew Shirdi Baba is alive
today, there is no evidence except my own knowledge and experience.
The very fact that I announced that I am Shirdi Baba fourty years ago, when I was only ten and when
nobody in this part of the South had known or even heard of Shirdi Baba, proves this fact.
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Karanjia:
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The existing situation where humanity is being driven by evil forces to
destruction, as you have correctly analysed it, appears to suggest the inevitability of another
Mahabharata-type war. Does this mean that the salvation for which you are working can be
consummated only after a destructive war?
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Baba:
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The evil must and shall be removed before such catastrophe takes place. There will be minor wars
and skirmishes, of course: these cannot be helped in the existing state of affairs. The Mahabharata
war was a different issue altogether. Lord Krishna decreed it, and, in fact, led Arjuna as his
Divine Charioteer to the battlefield in order to rid the world of evil men and ungodly forces.
Today, as I told you, the evil is so widespread that humanity itself would be destroyed in a
nuclear holocaust in the event of a world war. It is the prevent such a catastrophe that this
Avatar has come to raise human consciousness above the existing syndrome of anger, hate, violence
and war and save the world from disaster. This can be achieved only by the reestablishment of the
brotherhood of mankind through the Vedas, Shastras and all the religions with their evangel of
righteousness to liberate the human race from the chains of karma.
I always say: let the different faiths exist, let them flourish, let the glory of God be sung in
all the languages in a variety of tunes. That should be the ideal. Respect the differences between
the faiths and recognise them as valid so far as they do not extinguish the flame of Unity.
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Karanjia:
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From what Baba has said, it seems there is not much difference or dichotomy
between God and man. Am I right?
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Baba:
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Quite right. God is man and man is God. All of us have something of God, the divine spark, within
us. All men are divine like myself, but with the Spirit embodied in human flesh and bone. The only
difference is that they are unaware of this Godhood. They have come into this karmic prison through
the mistakes of many lives. I have taken this mortal form out of my own free will. They are bound
to the body, while I am free of this bondage. The main difference is that they are shoved hither
and thither by desire but I have no desire except the supreme one to make them desirelessness.
Take paddy or rice by way of an illustration. Every grain of rice is enclosed in a husk. You have
to remove the husk to get the grain of rice. Now husk and rice, both come from the same seed. Rice
is the equivalent of God in man, while the husk can be compared to desire which reduces God to man.
Therefore, my formula is:
Life + desire = Man
Life – desire = God
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Karanjia:
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In what way can life without desire make Gods of men?
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Baba:
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Life without desire means the realisation of the pure, genuine Self that is the atma
(spirit). Bound to desire, the Self degenerates into Selfishness. Atma turns into ego. The way to
self-realisation is to cleanse the self of this ego of selfishness. Then you can reach a state of
consciousness beyond the mind or intellect revealing the true Self that is God. The mind is like a
cloth that covers and stifles consciousness, the threads of which are desires. If we give up the
desires, the threads fall and the cloth disappears revealing our true nature. This is what the
Vedanta means when it enjoins that one must get rid of the ego to realise oneself.
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Karanjia:
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You mean that the mind of man as such creates the block between man and
God?
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Baba:
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Yes. One must make a distinction between the mind that is the ego, and the real Self that is
consciousness. The latter helps us cross the frontiers of the ego-mind and become aware of oneself
as the witness of Truth. Normally, the scientist of the mind looks outside to what can be perceived
by the senses existing in the world of the mind to ask: what is this? The scientist of
consciousness, on the other hand, always looks inside to that which is beyond the senses or the
grasp of the mind to ask: what is that?
One has, therefore, to rise beyond the mind to consciousness to achieve self-realisation. To gain
the infinite, universal atma (spirit), the embodiment of Self must break out of the puny,
finite little prison of individuality. Desire belongs to the senses, the brain, the mind; once you
become free of it, you realise the Self, atma, consciousness, enlightenment, and become one
with the Cosmic Power. Self-realisation is God-realisation. Thus man reaches God.
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Karanjia:
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What is the significance of the vibhutti (ash) and the trinkets that you
materialise and gift to people? Is there any need for a God-man to demonstrate such miracles which
any magician can conjure?
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Baba:
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So far as I am concerned, this is evidence of my divinity. It is not by any means an exhibition of
divinity. All performances of magic, as you know, are done for the sake of income. These are the
tricks of the magician’s trade. They constitute a kind of legalised cheating, the transfer of an
object from one place to another by a trick of the hand which goes unnoticed. They involve no
siddhi, or miraculous power.
What I do is quite a different act of creation. It is neither magic, nor is it siddhi power
either. For one thing, I seek no return. For another, I do not cheat people by transferring
objects, but I create them. Again, I do so not because of any need or desire of exhibition of my
powers. For me this is the kind of visiting card to convince people of my love for them and secure
their devotion in return. Since love is formless, I use materialisations as evidence of my love. It
is merely a symbol.
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Karanjia:
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I still do not understand why you should materialise rings, bracelets,
watches and those kind of trinkets?
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Baba:
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Most people desire talismans symbolic of my protection. So I provide them. When they are in trouble
they feel the grip of the ring, bracelet or watch to remember me and call me to their rescue so
that I can help them. On the other hand, if I give them something they cannot wear, they are likely
to store it and forget about it.
The main thing is that these trinkets or talisman, by whatever name you call them, give people a
sense of security and protection they need in time of trouble or crisis and create a symbolic link
covering the long distance between them and myself. When the devotees need me, these objects flash
the message as if by wireless and I instantly come to their rescue.
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 Karanjia:
I am sorry to be so persistent, Swamiji, but isn’t the gift of an Omega
or HMT watch an act of cheating the company or breach of its patent?
Baba: I assure you there is no such thing. It would be cheating the company or breaching the
patent if it was a case of transfer of the watch from one place or the other. But I do not
transfer. I totally create. Whatever I will, instantly materialises. I know of no company that has
complained about any breach of patent.
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Karanjia:
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What about the vibhutti (ash) materialised by you? We
would like to know its relevance because your critics are
trying to discredit you by sending round magicians who
produce exact replicas of vibhutti.
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Baba:
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What I materialise is a manifestation of divinity with a potent significance as well as
symbolisation. It is symbolic of the cosmic, immortal and infinite nature of all forms of God, atma
or the Spirit—that is, what is left when everything worldly, transient and changeable has burnt
away. I have spoken to you of the imperative of a desireless life. After Shiva had burnt the God of
desire, Kama, into a heap of ashes, he adorned himself with the ash to shine as the conqueror of
desire. When Kama was destroyed, Prema reigned as the Goddess of Love. Such is the significance of ash.
In the first place, it is symbolic of the life-death cycle in which everything ultimately reduces
itself to ash. "For dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." Ash or dust is the final
condition of things. It cannot undergo any further change. In the spiritual context, it constitutes
a warning to the receiver to give up desires, to burn all passions, attachment and temptations in
the fires of worship which makes one pure in thought, word and deed.
It is in order to press home this lesson that I materialise ash for those who come to me with love
and devotion. Like the other materialisations, it also acts as a talisman healing the sick and
giving protection to those who need it. It is the symbol of divinity, quite different from the
magician’s trickery mentioned by you.
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